"No, you're not," Luke says seriously. "Because it's not really a matter of how you see it. It's not funny because... for us, the consequences aren't minor. It's not like someone putting salt in your caf, which is also not at all funny but doesn't intend to kill you. You engineered a situation where an inmate killed two other people. What if they hadn't come back to life? What if dying was really traumatic for them? What if the experience of being sliced in half and bleeding to death wasn't really fun for them?"
"I THINK IT'S EXTREMELY UNLIKELY THEY WOULDN'T COME BACK TO LIFE! THE ONLY TIME I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN IS WITH YOU, AND THOSE WERE WEIRD CIRCUMSTANCES! THAT WAS BAD!"
'Bad' is a word here meaning: Bill was extremely upset and had panic feelings that he doesn't like to revisit by remembering them.
At no point has Luke raised his voice or become angry; he knows it won't help, and it's not a feeling he likes anyway. It's touching, that his death had hit Bill so hard. But the compartmentalization brings home just how far they still have to go.
"You hurt people, Bill," he says quietly. "It doesn't matter that they came back--first of all, that's not the usual way of things. And you caused them pain, and distress, and pain and distress to the people who love them. And to Beetlejuice, who is supposed to be learning to value other lives. I'm not sure how to make this real for you, but hurting other people for your own gain... that's wrong. At the very most basic level."
Luke takes a moment to think about this. He's not sure where they're not connecting, only that he knows Bill can't make the leap to other people having feelings about this. He bites his lip.
"Are you fine?" he asks. "When you think about me dying. When you think about breaking up with Ford. When you think about where you came from. Are you fine?"
"Yes," Luke brightens a little, encouragingly. "It's not just the moment that matters. It's all the stuff that goes with it, and how it makes you feel after. I mean... Okay."
He flexes the fingers of his right hand.
"I guess you could say that it doesn't matter that I got my hand cut off, right? Because look! I have another one. Good as new, right? But for me, it's not the same thing. Because every time I look at it, I remember that I used to have a hand that was part of me, not a machine. And I remember that my father cut it off. And I remember all the other stuff that goes along with it. So the fact that I have a hand and it works fine... that's almost beside the point. Does that make sense at all?"
"WHAT IF YOU COULD GROW IT BACK THE SAME, WOULD THAT FIX IT?"
No, he is guessing? But. Why. Does it do this. Bill's cane is hooked around his satchel, and he picks it up to fidget with it while he's thinking.
"I DID A LOT OF AWFUL STUFF TO FORD, AND HE FORGAVE ME. HE HAS A BIG SCAR DOWN HIS SIDE FROM WHERE I ELECTROCUTED HIM. I THREW YOU DOWN THE STAIRS ONCE! I MEAN, YOU WEREN'T THERE AT THE TIME, SO IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT..."
"It wouldn't," he says. "And just because stuff affects us, doesn't mean it's all horrible. I remember what my father did, but I don't hate him. In a way, what we went through made our relationship complicated, but not, in the end, bad. Just like how... you went through stuff in your dimension that you didn't like, that wasn't good, but which made you who you are.
"It's the same with you and Ford. You've been through a lot, and in some ways it's probably made your relationship richer. So it's not that all bad things need to be erased. But what happened here was senseless. It doesn't add anything because there's no context to it other than hurt. Does that make any sense? Ford can forgive you, because there's more to you than that one memory."
This is, probably, the best he can hope for at this point.
"I think the thing to try to remember," he says, "is that what matters is if it's funny to everyone. I don't mean everyone needs to have the same sense of humor. I mean that if it's only funny because someone else gets hurt... it's like all the other messy parts of dealing with other people."
Luke thinks back to his own training, to the do's and don't's of how he'd been taught. Honestly, he's not a big fan of how he'd been taught, and he'd never really been taught ethics or whatever, so it doesn't really help.
"Before I answer that," he says after a moment, "I want you to think about the conversation we've just had and tell me whether you think it matters."
"Okay... I'll grant you that in part. But let's assume, for the moment, that you don't know. And that neither you nor Beetlejuice asked them if they were willing to be part of this great joke where they died."
"The problem is," he says after a moment, "I can't really give you a list of stuff that's acceptable and not acceptable. It depends on the circumstances, and the people. And even the society you're part of."
Luke has done some reading since coming here.
"But I think a really good rule, for everyone, is that if you're affecting someone else negatively, and they have no say in the matter, it's not good. Obviously we all make mistakes and sometimes we don't know, or it's out of our control. But the actions that we can control? We can make sure we're not causing harm or grief. And you might not understand why, Bill. I get that. But it's important that you understand that it does matter, to someone. Even if that isn't you or me or Ford."
This is a lot. He's not sure he's ready for all this, and he stays quiet a moment.
Is this something he wants? He wants to be less selfish, wants to be more aware when he's hurting people that could have been his allies. Doesn't want to ...end worlds. Probably.
But two deaths that didn't stick seems... so small. It's hard to feel something, not that he's ever been an expert at feeling things about death.
"I get that it doesn't feel significant to you," he says quietly. "I'm not doing this to torture you. But the thing is... I'm trying to help you figure out how to get on when it's not just you. I get that it's new for you. I guess want I want, for now, is to understand why it might upset them, or others. You don't have to feel it yourself."
As abhorrent as that seems, it's a big step, and Luke knows it. But Bill does have to learn to get along. In a society.
"HONESTLY? WAIT SIX MONTHS, ODDS ARE GOOD THEY'LL BOTH DISAPPEAR AND WE WON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. BUT THE ANSWER YOU WANT IS PROBABLY TO APOLOGIZE TO THEM!"
"That's a good start," Luke says, leveling a look at him. "And I think you should. But I was thinking more... what should we do that would help you not to do this type of thing in the future? I know Hange is upset, too, on account of Beetlejuice being... influenced negatively. So how are we going to make sure this doesn't happen again?"
And before Bill can say it, "and by 'this' I do not mean, specifically, people getting killed by scythes wielded by people on roller skates."
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neverjoinyou) wrote2026-04-05 02:51 pm![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
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'Bad' is a word here meaning: Bill was extremely upset and had panic feelings that he doesn't like to revisit by remembering them.
"I'M NOT GONNA DO THAT ONE AGAIN!"
For one.
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"You hurt people, Bill," he says quietly. "It doesn't matter that they came back--first of all, that's not the usual way of things. And you caused them pain, and distress, and pain and distress to the people who love them. And to Beetlejuice, who is supposed to be learning to value other lives. I'm not sure how to make this real for you, but hurting other people for your own gain... that's wrong. At the very most basic level."
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"BUT IT'S OVER NOW. IF IT'S BEEN THREE WEEKS, THEY'RE FINE!
...
I'M NOT DOING THIS ON PURPOSE. I'M TRYING."
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"Are you fine?" he asks. "When you think about me dying. When you think about breaking up with Ford. When you think about where you came from. Are you fine?"
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But they're not gone!
"I'VE HAD A LOT OF THINGS HURT ME. I'VE HAD A LOT OF THINGS PUT ME UNDER PRESSURE! YOU JUST, I DON'T KNOW. GET MAD! AND KEEP GOING!"
Okay. He can do this. Bill frowns, concentrating.
"WHEN I GO BACK TO FORD'S CABIN, I REMEMBER DYING THERE. AND THAT'S UNCOMFORTABLE, EVEN THOUGH IT'S OVER. SOMETHING LIKE THAT?"
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He flexes the fingers of his right hand.
"I guess you could say that it doesn't matter that I got my hand cut off, right? Because look! I have another one. Good as new, right? But for me, it's not the same thing. Because every time I look at it, I remember that I used to have a hand that was part of me, not a machine. And I remember that my father cut it off. And I remember all the other stuff that goes along with it. So the fact that I have a hand and it works fine... that's almost beside the point. Does that make sense at all?"
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No, he is guessing? But. Why. Does it do this. Bill's cane is hooked around his satchel, and he picks it up to fidget with it while he's thinking.
"I DID A LOT OF AWFUL STUFF TO FORD, AND HE FORGAVE ME. HE HAS A BIG SCAR DOWN HIS SIDE FROM WHERE I ELECTROCUTED HIM. I THREW YOU DOWN THE STAIRS ONCE! I MEAN, YOU WEREN'T THERE AT THE TIME, SO IT'S A LITTLE DIFFERENT..."
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"It wouldn't," he says. "And just because stuff affects us, doesn't mean it's all horrible. I remember what my father did, but I don't hate him. In a way, what we went through made our relationship complicated, but not, in the end, bad. Just like how... you went through stuff in your dimension that you didn't like, that wasn't good, but which made you who you are.
"It's the same with you and Ford. You've been through a lot, and in some ways it's probably made your relationship richer. So it's not that all bad things need to be erased. But what happened here was senseless. It doesn't add anything because there's no context to it other than hurt. Does that make any sense? Ford can forgive you, because there's more to you than that one memory."
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"IT PROBABLY WAS PRETTY FUNNY, THOUGH!
...BUT OTHER THINGS ARE FUNNY, IT'S A RENEWABLE RESOURCE!"
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"I think the thing to try to remember," he says, "is that what matters is if it's funny to everyone. I don't mean everyone needs to have the same sense of humor. I mean that if it's only funny because someone else gets hurt... it's like all the other messy parts of dealing with other people."
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"DIDN'T ANYBODY ELSE LIKE IT?"
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"Before I answer that," he says after a moment, "I want you to think about the conversation we've just had and tell me whether you think it matters."
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"IT'S UP TO THE PEOPLE THAT DIED!"
Well, closer.
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"Okay... I'll grant you that in part. But let's assume, for the moment, that you don't know. And that neither you nor Beetlejuice asked them if they were willing to be part of this great joke where they died."
Because that is true.
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"THEN THAT'S ... BAD."
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"Why?"
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"The problem is," he says after a moment, "I can't really give you a list of stuff that's acceptable and not acceptable. It depends on the circumstances, and the people. And even the society you're part of."
Luke has done some reading since coming here.
"But I think a really good rule, for everyone, is that if you're affecting someone else negatively, and they have no say in the matter, it's not good. Obviously we all make mistakes and sometimes we don't know, or it's out of our control. But the actions that we can control? We can make sure we're not causing harm or grief. And you might not understand why, Bill. I get that. But it's important that you understand that it does matter, to someone. Even if that isn't you or me or Ford."
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Is this something he wants? He wants to be less selfish, wants to be more aware when he's hurting people that could have been his allies. Doesn't want to ...end worlds. Probably.
But two deaths that didn't stick seems... so small. It's hard to feel something, not that he's ever been an expert at feeling things about death.
"YEAH. IT MATTERS TO THEM. OKAY."
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"I get that it doesn't feel significant to you," he says quietly. "I'm not doing this to torture you. But the thing is... I'm trying to help you figure out how to get on when it's not just you. I get that it's new for you. I guess want I want, for now, is to understand why it might upset them, or others. You don't have to feel it yourself."
As abhorrent as that seems, it's a big step, and Luke knows it. But Bill does have to learn to get along. In a society.
"So what do you think we should do?"
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And before Bill can say it, "and by 'this' I do not mean, specifically, people getting killed by scythes wielded by people on roller skates."
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